From: john boyle 
Newsgroups: uk.finance uk.legal
Subject: Re: Chip and pin fraud.
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:50:51 +0100

In message <3m2sqgF15035uU1@individual.net>, Tumbleweed 
 writes
>
>"john boyle"  wrote in message
>news:$VP$JYiu2++CFwkB@johnboyle1.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> You dont need a new ATM for it to be C&P enabled.
>
>ARe you sure? Dont you need a chip reader?
>
Yes, but tht doesnt necessarily mean a new machine.

>>
>>> So unless they were very early examples, they wont be C&P.
>>
>> Pardon,. Are you saying that if they aren't old (i.e. they are newish)
>> then they wont be C&P?
>
>No, I was saying that I understood ATMs had to be relatively new to be C&P
>enabled. And since these ones haven't changed for 2 or 3 years, then unless
>they were amongst the very first C&P ATMs , they wont be C&P.

Ahh! I misunderstood what you meant by 'early examples'.
>
>Dont you need new technology (ega chip reader) to let the PIN be changed,
>since its in the chip?

See above
>
>>> Next time
>>>I'm there I'll have a look. I presume there should be a PIN change option
>>>on
>>>them if they are C&P enabled?
>>
>> I dont see why that should be the case. The link I posted makes it clear
>> that an ATM's ability to change a PIN isnt necessarily the same as its
>> ability to act as a C&P ATM for the withdrawal of cash.
>
>If it cant read the pin from the chip, it effectively isnta C&P ATM< its no
>different to any other ATM since it will have to read the mag stripe.

No, AIUI the ability to change PIN and its ability to handle C&P arent 
necessarily related.
>
>>
>> I know from my own experience that HSBC & RBS say that I can change my PIN
>> at any ATM from a list of banks that I cant remember because I only looked
>> at those banks who maintained a branch close to where I needed one. The
>> main point being that it wasnt a list of ATM locations or bank branches,
>> it was a list of banks of which all their ATMs would do the job. On
>> memory, it seemed to be all the clearing banks. I also know from personal
>> experience that the local ATMs havent all been changed. I also know that
>> ti doesnt need an ATM change for C&P to be implemented.
>>
>> I dont think that the ability to change a PIN can not be relied on as an
>> indicator that the ATM is C&P enabled.
>
>I think it must be, since if I'm right and the ATM has to 'talk' to the chip
>to change the PIN, you must have new equipment installed.

Im not sure that you can make that deduction. Dont forget, about a year 
or so ago there were many people in this group who were insisting that 
with mag stripes AND C&P the pin must be held on the main computer and 
the pin was 'sent down the line' as it were. This was because the 
posters who couldnt see how it worked.  But everybody now accepts that 
the PIN is checked by the chip.
-- 
John Boyle