From: Alex 
Newsgroups: uk.finance
Subject: Re: Chip & PIN - Bin the PIN.
Date: 19 Feb 2004 10:43:53 GMT

Without a hint of irony, jjamies@tiscali.co.uk (James) astounded
uk.finance on 19 Feb 2004 by announcing: 

> What is PIN negligence - define it?  Crooks shoulder surf, use false
> key pads
> at ATMS, micro-cameras, phish on the Internet, make bogus calls just
> to
> acquire someones PIN.  In theory EMV compliant Chip cards will still
> be able
> to be cloned so long as they have a magstrip.  What's to stop your
> card being cloned in the UK and used in Europe/Americl or Asia,
> several days later?
> A smart system may pick up an unusual spending pattern but armed with
> a cloned card and PIN with a credit card most crooks will be heading
> straight to the first ATM they can find.

And then find out that the cardholder does not have a cash withdrawal 
facility on the card.

> Up until recently a PIN with
> a credit card was consumer choice.  Now your getting them if you want
> them or not. One things for sure the crooks will!

Cash withdrawal is still a consumer choice.

> Fraud at ATM's rose 37% last year - PINs are used exclusively at ATMS.

They have been, yes.  With EMV, PINs are also now used for transactions.

> Chip & PIN will do little or nothing to preven CNP fraud, lost in mail
> fraud or Identity Theft.

Requiring cards to be activated on receipt should help with postal fraud.

> C&P is designed to deter fraud in shops. £200 million was lost to card
> fraud in shops last year. The higher % of this was due to counterfeit
> cards. CHIPS should deter this, but only if ALL shops have equipment
> capable of reading Chip Cards.

And those that don't will themselves become liable for the fraud.

> It can then be assumed that the rest of
> this fraud takes place on lost or stolen cards. One area that the
> banking industry could improve on is communications.  Reporting your
> card lost and a block being put on often never reaches retail point of
> sale for quite some time. A signature does achieve two things - an
> auditable trail between the person carrying out a purchase and crime.
> The second is that neither your signature or your print will be on the
> shops copy of the transaction slip - you can prove you didn't carryout
> that particular transaction if you have to.

I can go to a store today and sign the slip incorrectly, and wearing 
gloves.  I can then 'prove' I didn't carry out that transaction, even 
though I did.

> Try denying use of a PIN!
> 
> On the same theme the cost of Chip and PIN in the UK is estimated to
> be £1.1 billion and rising. Retailers are expected to pick up at least
> one third of this cost. This is at a time when Banks are announcing
> record profits. Who is being robbed?

If you're really that worried about credit card fraud and misuse of PINs, 
don't apply for a credit card.  It really is that simple.